Doreen Bogdan-Martin:
I'm happy to have with me today, Dr. Naoko Ishii professor and executive vice president at the University of Tokyo. At the university, Naoko is also the inaugural director of the Centre for Global Commons that aims to catalyse systems change for sustainable development. Naoko was CEO and chairperson of the Global Environmental Facility, from 2012 to 2020, and has also served as Japan's Deputy Vice Minister of Finance from 2010 to 2012. Throughout her amazing career, she has worked on circular economy and environmental causes, and she has championed the need for systemic and institutional change for a sustainable transition to a circular economy. In 2020, ITU’s Global e-waste monitor found that the total weight of global electronics consumption increases every year by 2.5 million tonnes. Let me repeat that- by 2.5 million tonnes. This exponential rise of technology and its widespread adoption has led to a dual effect. On the one hand, there is a rising number of devices and electronics in the market, exacerbating an already growing waste and resource challenge. And on the other hand, new technology has also led to an increase in digital solutions and innovation that is a catalyst to transforming electronic value chains towards a circular model. Today, Dr. Ishii will share her insights on the opportunities that digitalization and connectivity bring to the transition towards a circular economy for electronics, particularly in building sustainable e waste management systems. Welcome Naoko. It's so great to have you here today.
Dr. Naoko Ishii:
Thank you, Doreen, it's really so exciting to have this conversation with you.
Doreen Bogdan-Martin:
Thank you. Let me dive into my first question. With the health hazards, the environmental effects as well as the economic loss due to e-waste, in your opinion, what's the most pressing adverse effect of unregulated and improperly disposed electronic waste?
Dr. Naoko Ishii:
Yeah, that is really a significant impact on the ground. And particularly based on my experience, as the CEO of the GEF, I have witnessed a lot of environmental and health adversity impacts on the ground, in addition to economic loss as you just mentioned. So that is why digitalization, it sets in the potential, but we also need to pay a good attention to this dark side of this technology. Otherwise, we will incur a huge cost level, not only the current generation, but also the future generation. When I see the impacts on the ground, particularly in a few countries that the GEF had been working on, like, let's say Nigeria, because I was there, also the governor, there are a few key elements which could address that issue. One is the lack of capacity, the lack of resources, including financial resources, but also the lack of system, which capture the global value chain, because a lot of e-waste…the way that the EEE was produced in the developed countries…kind of a slow, unregulated trade channel, it's kind of improperly disposed in some of those developing countries. Then another… the economic opportunity potential, et cetera, et cetera, and that people are exposed to environmental and health problems. So, if we were able to bring those key actors together along the value chain, and using digitization technology, we may be able to come up with a much better solution, or systemic solution, to this big issue.
Doreen Bogdan-Martin:
Thank you. So you've mentioned Nigeria, and of course, there was significant work done during your time in GEF. In building sustainable e-waste management systems. Can you elaborate- you've mentioned a couple of the challenges, the lack of resources, capacity- what are some of the key opportunities and perhaps maybe additional challenges that you have seen in this process? And also, if you could share your thoughts on how digital technologies and connectivity can help in overcoming some of the challenges when it comes to e-waste management?
Dr. Naoko Ishii:
Yeah, thank you so much for mentioning the GEF supported project in Nigeria, that challenge was quite a business there, including national business there…that challenge is more like how to bring those pieces together, in terms of the capacity, in terms of the resources, including financial resources, but also actors of the private sector. And that there are two types of private sector – one is the electronics companies who produce the products, but also on the ground, the people who are engaged in the collection and the recycling. So, how we can bring those two totally different private sectors together. And particularly on the ground, the informal sector has been dominating the scene. So then it is totally different to private sector. And the same for one project, the programme has been quite challenging and particularly, who is responsible for additional resources to bring everything together and implement it. That has been quite challenging. But you mentioned the potential for digital technology– I see huge, huge opportunity for that, and in order for us to move towards the circular economy of electronics, there are basically three components on how to manufacture that and other products…which can be much more easily recycled, then how to make those products life longer, and how we can do collection and then recycle better. So, under each of those three components, this kind of technology can provide a huge opportunity. And I may just want to mention one very concrete example, even in developed countries like Japan, where the cost incurred is more…like collection and then dismantle those products, into each of the components. And if each of the products can carry the product information, that will make recycling much more easy. Digital technology or blockchain technology can give us an opportunity to carry that important information through the value chain; it will increase the transparency and the integrity of that value chain much more. So that is maybe that one example, on how I see how technology can increase the chance for us to move on to the circular economy.
Doreen Bogdan-Martin:
Thank you, thank you for that. That's a great example. It's exciting to hear from you about the huge opportunities that exist in terms of leveraging digital technologies and connectivity. Naoko, you have extensive experience at the nexus of finance and climate action. You're also a strong proponent of investing in environmental projects that result in economic and environmental returns. Can you share with us, where do you see the need for financing as we move towards a circular economy? And perhaps in particular, one where it's supported by digital technologies?
Dr. Naoko Ishii:
Thank you for great question. Maybe my preferred question [laughter], because, well, the very fundamental, a little bit of a philosophical question is: Who is responsible for safeguarding the entire global commons, or our planetary earth system? And our current economic system, including financial system doesn't really account for the value of nature, the barrier of stability of the earth system, and we tend to consider them as free, or limitless. And that’s how we use them up. And that's why we created this programme of climate change, biodiversity loss, and then waste, and combining on soil. So the fundamental question to remedy that problem is, how to price, or how to recognise and find a way to price those externalities? Let's say…but conduct the earth system, so let's consider it no more. It's limitless. Its not infinite, it's actually finite, and we need to find a way to value the natural capital, and bring them into the economic transactions… actually that situation is getting quite good these days. Then we just heard from UNEA that the Plastic Treaty is about to be born, or at least that countries have agreed to go for that; so Plastic Treaty means that our way of seeing plastic may change. And also from a scientific point of view, I don't know if some of the readers or the listeners are aware of the planetary boundary concept, but it's just two months ago that the narrative told by earth system scientists, that novel entities, have already exceeded the safe operating space. So, science tells us that we have to find a way to handle those novel entities, and that our action, the political policy action, also tells us we need to change our behaviour. So I think that that those boundaries are kind of forcing us to really change our behaviour. So what does it mean to finance, so that when we try to work on how to put a price on natural capital, or so called externalities... but of course, the day to day thing is very, very important. So as I just mentioned as one example, if we have this EPR, extended produced liability and responsibility– if we have that kind of system, not only in one country, but hopefully along the value chain, that will create more incentive for good, penalty for bad, and it should reflect the financing decision by institutions.
Doreen Bogdan-Martin:
Thank you. And as you said, we have to find a way, and in many cases, it's about changing behaviour. I wanted to perhaps pick up on the example as I understand it, in Japan, the Japanese legal system for e-waste management puts the responsibility on the consumer to contribute towards an increase in e-waste collection. Building on what you have just said, for this to be successful, would you agree that this requires a certain level of societal norms and cultural influences where consumers respect the electronics they use? And where they actually take proactive roles in returning their equipment?
Dr. Naoko Ishii:
I cannot agree more with you Doreen, that, yes, as a consumer it's quite tedious. Because these days, we cannot just dispose the computer, we are supposed to return it to the community or the standard municipalities. Now the municipalities are telling us no, we have to bring back to producers or somewhere else. So that it really imposes on them financial costs, but also the additional responsibility, or the labour. But then at the same time, when I think what can I do as an individual to safeguard the planetary earth system? At least, this is one thing I can do. So I should be happy about it. To see this as a concrete action that individual consumers can take.
Doreen Bogdan-Martin:
Thank you for that. And finally, I'm putting this same question to all of my interviewees as we wrap up our incredible chat. Naoko, can you tell me what was your first mobile device? And how did it change your life?
Dr. Naoko Ishii:
Mobile devices, are kind of iPhone, or before iPhone?
Doreen Bogdan-Martin:
Even before, even before.
Dr. Naoko Ishii:
Before iPhone… it's really a big kind of automobile phone. And it was maybe about five kilos, or maybe bigger. And I wanted to have it 30 years ago, because I wanted to have freedom to get out of office because office used to contact me, and the Ministry of Finance. And in order for me to be free from my desk, I had to carry that big automobile phone that’s very big and heavy, and costly. Now, it's maybe just 500 milligrams or something like that. So, it's really a lot of convenience and a lot of freedom, a lot of liberty at the same time. I also understand that I am not really fully top notch, the world is moving so fast, there are so many things, I'm not really able to catch up. So it's a little bit of anxiety in me that I have of how I can keep up with this. The trend is moving so fast.
Doreen Bogdan-Martin:
Indeed our sector moves very, very quickly. I too, remember having a device like what you just described and how that was really life changing in terms of convenience as you said, and independence as well. Naoko, it's been an incredible time with you. Thank you for spending this moment with us and for sharing these fascinating inspirational stories and insights, and also good guidance for individuals and for countries. Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes this episode of the UNconnected podcast. Until next time, let's all stay connected. Goodbye.