FINISHED FILE

ITU
APRIL 26, 2017
6:00 A.M. CT
DCAD E-MEETING

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	>> The system is dialing a new participant.  Please wait.  To cancel this connection, dial *88.  This is a test.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Can the captioner test typing for me.  I want to see if I've got it on my -- I've got it.  
	Can the captioner type what I'm typing?  I mean, what I'm saying.  I'm brain dead.  
	(Laughter) 
	>> Kaoru, do you think we ought to start now?  
	>> KAORU: Yes, please.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: We have to start without anybody.  Have you had the chance to look at the agenda because I can read this to you, okay, while we're waiting.  How's that?  
	>> Yeah.  Because I didn't get to read it.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: All right.  Let me read it for you.  Okay.  "Planning for the 2017 Internet Governance Forum, IGF, Geneva, Switzerland," date 18-21st December.  "Shape your Digital Future" is the theme of the meeting.  There's some links there.  There's the Adobe Connect link and others, which you don't need right now.
	"Possible DCAD workshop" is Number 1.  "Deadline for the proposal submission is 3rd of May.  IGF's guidelines are available at," and a website is given, "and a brief manual," which is also given, which is -- Kaoru will guide us through that if we need to do anything with it, but anyway, "Possible workshop titles and content" is the first section.  I'll come back to that in a minute.  That's A.
	Number B, "Possible tags (list of tags are available at)" and we have a list of that, and Kaoru is going to explain that.
	And then we have to deal with C, "Speakers - to be decided"
	And D, "Session format.  Last year's workshop format: other (90 minutes) - Open Forum discussion preceded by brief presentations," which is what we did last time.
	And then "Resources" we have on the list as "DCAD/G3ict workshop last year," and that was "No. 272, Sustainable Accessible Goals for Persons with Disabilities," and the presentation slides and the link.
	"Suggested updates to the DCAD Accessibility Guidelines (ongoing discussion.)"  We may not get into much of that today, though we could.  We put that up with the Rev. marks because Gunela did an awful lot of work, so we have time to deal with that.
	Then we also put up the ITU-T -- what we call the Technical Papers on Remote -- Accessible Remote Participation, which are "Guidelines for supporting remote participation in meetings for all (2015)," and that is a possible thing that we should deal with maybe as one of the discussion -- one of the workshop entries, and "FSTP-Accessible Meetings, Guidelines for Accessible Meetings," and this all ties in with the Accessibility Guidelines, but the RemPart is more specific.  We call it RemPart, remote participation, but it's just got an abbreviated title, but that's what we wrote as a technical paper and that has been consented in ITU-T in Question 26 regarding for "Guidelines for supporting remote participation in meetings," and that was done in 2015.
	So Gerry, do you have any questions so far?  
	>> GERRY ELLIS: No.  All good.  No problem.  The dates in December for DCAD dates are the 11th-14th, is that it?
	>> ANDREA SAKS:  No.  For --
	>> GERRY ELLIS: Or for the IGF, sorry.
	>> ANDREA SAKS: It's Switzerland 18-21 in September.  
	>> GERRY ELLIS: 18-21 of December.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: No, in December, excuse me.  18-21 December.  
	>> GERRY ELLIS: Goodness.  I don't think I'd be a very popular boy if I disappeared so close to Christmas.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Well, you can always do it remotely, and it might be interesting --
	>> GERRY ELLIS: Yeah.
	>> ANDREA SAKS: -- due to the recent document.
	Well, let's come back.  Gunela has popped on the line.  Gunela, can you hear us all right?  Can we hear you?  Gunela, I can't hear any response from you.  
	>> ABBOUD: She's not connected to the VoIP.  I will ask her now to connect with us.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: What did you say?  You were too close to the mic.
	>> ABBOUD: Sorry.  Actually, she's not connected to VoIP or on the phone, so she can't hear.  
	>> GUNELA ASBRINK: Hello.  I think I might be connected now.  
	>> ABBOUD: Yeah, now she's connected.
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Ah, you are.  There you are.  Gerry, can you hear Gunela?  
	>> GERRY ELLIS: Say something, Gunela.  
	>> GUNELA ASBRINK: Yes.  Hello, Gerry.  How are you today?  
	>> GERRY ELLIS:  I'm pretty good.  We're here at the top of the world, you're way down there at the bottom.  
	>> GUNELA ASBRINK: Yes, absolutely.  All right.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: All right.  You haven't missed anything.  I have read the agenda while we were waiting for other people to Gerry because he didn't have time to look at it because we only produced it this morning.  Have you seen the agenda, Gunela?  
	>> GUNELA ASBRINK: No, because I just realized it arrived an hour ago, I think.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: That's right.  You have no idea.  Everybody is scheduling things at the ITU on top of each other, so it's kind of difficult for us to do all that is expected, so he we kind of are doing things on the fly.  Now, what I wanted to say is that I will go through it and read each thing I'm going to do because I haven't -- I've just given the headlines of the -- you can bring it up and get it in a second, maybe on a separate thing, but I will read them out as I go because I just gave the bullet points of the actual headlines that we're going to do.  Actually, at the moment, Kaoru -- 
	>> KAORU: It's okay.  Andrea.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Sorry.  Did you say something, Gunela?  
	>> GUNELA ASBRINK: Yes, sorry.  I've got the agenda in front of me now.
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Okay.  Good.
	>> GUNELA ASBRINK: I've got the agenda in front of me.  So unless -- Gerry hasn't got access to it.
	>> ANDREA SAKS: That's okay.  I've read out most of it to him.  What I'm going to do is read out as we go and we'll take it from there.
	So basically, I'd like to go -- we only have now 55 minutes, and I think what -- we have to submit by May the 3rd, so -- and speakers as well.  As I've said to you last year, let's worry about getting people there or whether they participate remotely later, that's not on the agenda today.  What we have to do is to deal with what we're doing and who is doing what and who are speakers.  I do know that Francesca from G3ict, who will join us on this workshop -- because it will be a joint workshop -- will be a speaker.  Gerry may be a speaker, but Christmas time is a bad time for him to travel to Geneva, so he may be doing that remotely.  Is that correct, Gerry?  
	>> GERRY ELLIS: Yeah, it's a bad time because where I work in the bank, Christmas is one of the busiest times of the year, so I may not be able to get away from my work.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: That's fair enough.  
	>> GERRY ELLIS: I will see closer to the time.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: And if we do it, it's going to be easier to do remote participation from Geneva to you at that particular time, so I don't know how we will organize any of this, but I'm going to put you down as a speaker, and guess what I think would be a really good topic for you.  
	>> GERRY ELLIS: What?  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Can you guess what I would think would be a good topic for you?  
	>> GERRY ELLIS: Remote participation, no?  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: You're on top of that:  We can come back to that, but it's not cast in stone.
	I think one of the things -- we have to write a synopsis of some kind of what the focus is -- a paragraph.  Kaoru is really very clear that we need to do this and we have to pick a title.
	Now, I am saying we should get our title together and then do the synopsis, but access is really the important area, so let me give you the titles that we have and reminding you of the big title is "Shape your Digital Future."  So the titles I came up -- and I added this morning one at the bottom that I thought you would like because I thought of you when I wrote this this morning -- suggested titles that we have already discussed, and this one has brackets because there were three versions.  "Closing the Digital Divide for Persons with Disabilities," then there was an addition of the word "closing" or using the word "Bridging the Digital Divide for Persons with Disabilities."  And then I think this came from Judy, "Closing" or "Bridging the Digital Divide for Persons with Disabilities" -- Oh, thank you, somebody just brought me a cup of tea.  I'm a lucky girl.  Thank you, Ann.  Where am I?  "Closing" or "Bridging the Digital Divide for Persons with Disabilities (in All Parts of the World)."
	I want you to bear them in mind.  Those are three possibilities, any combination thereof.  That was No. 1.
	No. 2, "Shaping a Globally Accessible Digital Future" was another one, then "Persons with Disabilities Shaping Their Own Digital Future."  Then another one is "Persons with Disabilities Shaping Their Own Accessible Digital Future" with the word "Accessible" Added.  Then the other one was "Persons with Disabilities Shaping the Digital Future;" in other words, "the Digital Future," all of it.  And the one I added this morning was "A Global Digital Future Should Be An Accessible One."  That came to me this morning.  Whether you like it or not, I don't know.  I put it down.  So the last one, which I thought of you, Gerry, was "Universal Design: Creating an Accessible Global Digital Future." And when I wrote "Universal Design," I thought of you.
	So those are the choices with my two extra ones, but Gunela, I've already said this to Gerry, it's going to be down to us three plus Kaoru, who has really good ideas because we had a chat this morning, on what we really want to focus on, and that is getting access, in my view, but also being able to contribute to the process and influencing people who create and make things for the Internet and being able to -- be able to communicate.
	So who would like to speak first, Gerry or Gunela? 
	>> GERRY ELLIS: Ladies first.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Gunela, go for it.  You're on.  Can we -- are you there, Gunela?  I think we've lost her.  Gunela, it says you're on.  We have our moderator -- oh, we've lost her.  She just dropped off.  Gerry, in the meantime, would you like to say something?  
	>> GERRY ELLIS: Okay.  I like the idea of the universal design one, but it limits us too much, unless we had a specific speaker talking about universal design.  I think that limits us too much.  I -- I liked -- I think I suggested the one that said people -- starting with persons with disabilities shaping Europe because that's also ourselves taking action, and that's why I liked that one, so I thought these might be preferred, so "Persons with Disabilities Shaping Their Digital Future" or "Their Own Digital Future," something -- one of those.  You know, it implies action.  That was my thinking.  What about yourself?  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: The reason I like "Universal Design" is it involves everybody and not just Persons with Disabilities, because, like it or not, nobody listens to Persons with Disabilities unless you stamp your feet, and Persons with Disabilities have very little power in most places.  You have power because you're involved in the process, but the average person does not, so you have to encourage the people who are in charge who do create things that don't necessarily -- are not necessarily Persons with Disabilities are the ones that you have to reach.  You have to reach the majority in order that the minority is done.
	Can you send an email, by the way, to Kaoru to Gunela and ask what's happening with her, if she dropped off, if she can get back on?  Kaoru?  
	>> KAORU: Yes.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Hello.  
	>> KAORU: Yes.  
	>> KAORU: I'm not hearing Kaoru either.  
	>> ABBOUD: Can you hear us?  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: I can hear you.  Where's Kaoru.  
	>> KAORU: Andrea, can you hear me?  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Yes, I can.  Can you send an email to Gunela and see what happened?  
	>> KAORU: yes.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Okay.  And the reason I don't like Persons with Disabilities is because we now have a definition.  I'll just carry on with what I was thinking for you.  It's because we also have people with specific needs, and what we have done is that we have amended the Joint Coordination Activity and Accessibility terms of reference, which is going to be dealt with next week at TSAG, which is the Telecommunication Standardization Advisory Group, that we wish to include women and indigenous people, which takes care of bringing in people from Africa, because specific needs is what we call it now , it's not just Persons with Disabilities, it's persons with specific needs that are often not recognized.
	We remember -- and this just a story for you, because it's just us chickens here, we can talk.  When I was at the WTDC, World Telecommunications Development Conference, last time in Dubai, there was a huge discussion on including literacy or not, and somebody said, well, they just didn't go to school, they just can't read, it's not a disability, and I said, excuse me, what about dyslexia, what about children who have other learning disabilities and other mental disabilities, so consequently, this he would count, and how do you tell one person that they can have access to accessibility features and things and tell another person that they can't, and that was to one of the guys, in fact, now, who heads the Study Group of Internet of Things from Dubai, and he got my point, and also India was very, very hot on literacy, and though we don't have -- oh, Nirmita on at the moment, I have been dealing with her for a workshop on WSIS, so I wanted to expand it, and the fact that we are dealing with Persons with Disabilities and it is a DCAD and G3ict is going to be our partner with Francesca, it's clear that we're dealing with Persons with Disabilities, so that was my view on doing universal design because people are -- 
	>> GERRY ELLIS: Okay.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: -- (Inaudible) that was my thought.  
	>> GERRY ELLIS: Okay.  I think you're right about the idea of expanding it.  I fully agree with you.  I tell you something I've been talking about for the last year or two or even more.  More and more I see trying to show what the UN CRPD talks about the difference between impairment and disability, so, you know, we tend to say when we say "disability," we tend to talk about the blindness, which is not the disability, that's the impairment; whereas, the disability is how blindness -- how society doesn't accommodate blind people.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: (Inaudible) 
	>> GERRY ELLIS: That's the disability.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: That's a good workshop topic for you to write on.  
	>> GERRY ELLIS: It is.  It's something I often talk about, and if you remember last year in Mexico, I said it to Judy Ward, who was the MEP that was there that if we put her and me in a dark room, she's more disabled than I am, even though -- 
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Very true.  
	>> GERRY ELLIS: -- I'm blind, she has the impairment, you know what I mean.  What you're saying about literacy, that person doesn't have an impairment as such, but they certain will I are disabled very much so.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Right.  So that's why I decided to make it bigger and broader because if we constantly refer to just Persons with Disabilities, it becomes, oh, the poor you or the poor person who doesn't have any fingers, and we want to go beyond that.  We want to make that person who designs stuff really understand if their country signed and ratified the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, they have to think about it, so I thought -- 
	>> GERRY ELLIS: Yep.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: And I thought for sure that you'd grab that, that you'd like it, so that's my view and -- 
	>> GERRY ELLIS: Yeah, I do like it, but what I was trying to talk as a subject would be that idea of the difference between impairment and disability --
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Got it.  
	>> GERRY ELLIS:  -- because it's greatly misunderstood, you know what I mean, and you can bring in that remote participation and all kinds of stuff, you know.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: So your topic for the workshop is going to be the difference between disability and impairment and --
	>> GERRY ELLIS: Yeah.  We'll come up with a title, but something along those lines, yeah.  That's what I'm suggesting.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: What I told Kaoru this morning and what I did the first time I ever did the Dynamic Coalition with disabilities is I sat with Reinhard, who was the executive director of the ITU, and we made it up.  We didn't know who was going to be our speakers or anything, but we had to get that application in by 7:00 that evening.  He dragged me out of a meeting and we just made it up.  We can change it.  Gunela, you're back on.  Good.  Good.
	What -- just to recap, Gerry said he did like "Persons with Disabilities Shaping Their Own Future," one of the Persons with Disabilities, and I'm not for that for the reason I want to broaden it out.  I don't know if you were able to hear anything I was saying about the fact that universal design applies to the people who actually do have the power.  Persons with Disabilities don't have the power.  The people who have the power are the people who create, the industry, the governments, and everything else, and that that is where the focus has to go, and Gerry has come up with a topic that would fit under that, so now I will turn the floor over to you and you give me a case for which one of the titles you like the best.  Can we hear you, Gunela?  
	>> GUNELA ASBRINK: Okay.  Thanks so much, Andrea.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Yes, we can.  Go ahead.  
	>> GUNELA ASBRINK: Can you hear me?  Good, good.  Because I -- I couldn't hear you, and there was this big gap, and I tried, but then I thought I'd just disconnect and connect again, so everything's good now, but I missed a bit of the conversation.
	So my thoughts are if we are going -- if we're going to use the words "Persons with Disabilities Shaping," it should be "Shaping Our Own Digital Future" rather than "Their Own," and "Shaping A Globally Accessible Digital Future" I think is useful and good.  "Universal Design" is something that we have been pushing for for it feels like decades now, and it still needs to be pushed, and I think I came in at the end of that conversation with you and Gerry, so I -- I would be comfortable with -- well, I'd be comfortable with Universal Design or Inclusive Design, creating An Accessible Global Digital Future.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: We can't use -- 
	>> GUNELA ASBRINK: Remember the -- 
	>> ANDREA SAKS: We can't use universal design, it's not UN language.  I'll explain in a minute.  Carry on with your thoughts.  Sorry.  
	>> GUNELA ASBRINK: Yeah.  Okay.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: You want to know why?  
	>> GUNELA ASBRINK: So the theme -- the general theme -- not at this point.  Let's just move on.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Okay.  Carry on.  
	>> GUNELA ASBRINK: So the general theme of -- 
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Are you there?  We've lost you again.  
	>> GUNELA ASBRINK: Yeah.  So the general theme of the -- can you hear me?  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Yes, we can now.  
	>> GUNELA ASBRINK: Good.  Okay.  So the -- "Shaping Your Digital Future" is the general theme, so I think it wouldn't hurt for us to not just have something where it says, "Shaping a Globally Accessible Digital Future" because it doesn't need to totally imitate the general theme.  I think we can -- we can use part of it, and so I'd be happy to go with "Universal Design: Creating an Accessible Global Digital Future" because that -- we know we can talk about universal design, and we know the importance of that.
	(Phone dinging) 
	So if Gerry wishes to talk about impairment and disability, I can certainly talk about -- well, I -- I've given presentations in the past, and I'm sure Gerry and Andrea have too about the principles of universal design, what -- what that means, examples in telecommunications, et cetera, so I'd be happy to go with the last title.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Oh, great.  I -- that's great.  I like what you just said with the -- you've given a presentation on universal design, and I think that would be good.  Gerry can go with -- if that's still agreeable to him with the difference between impairment and disability, you can go with that.  I would probably like to say something about the voice of persons with disabilities in determining their influence on that.  I'll come up with a title shortly with Kaoru, and I'm going to ask Judy if she would be willing to accept a title temporarily, including the developing world in -- we'll make up something, and we'll be in direct communication with her and put Judy there, and then we will get something from Francesca very quickly, and we just put it together because, as I said earlier, the problem is we have a deadline to make, which I think is totally unrealistic.  We could petition to change it later, and we can write something very quickly today and tomorrow and Kaoru and I could send it out.  It would be a 24-hour, you know, turnaround, and then we would submit.
	If you guys will agree to that, Kaoru and I will take the captioning of what we've done today and do that, and then we can submit, and we will write -- and you guys can -- and what I'd like to -- Kaoru, can you hear me okay because I -- do you think we could get a paragraph -- 
	>> KAORU: Yes.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: -- out today if you and I worked on it or tomorrow morning?  
	>> KAORU: This afternoon I will be -- I will not have time.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Okay.  Tomorrow.  
	>> KAORU: To summarize.  Tomorrow I hope, but I'm not sure, but we'll try.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Okay.  I'll try with you because tomorrow is Thursday.  When is the 3rd of May.  Just a minute.  Maybe we have a bit more 
	>> GERRY ELLIS: It's next Wednesday.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Oh, we have more time.  Okay.  Okay.  We will -- all right.  We could even try Friday, then, and maybe Monday.  I will be -- I will be in Geneva on Monday for TSAG.  We should -- 
	>> GERRY ELLIS: Monday is a bank holiday here.  Is it a bank holiday in Geneva?  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: No, we don't have bank holidays.  Sorry.  
	(Laughter)
	If it's a bank holiday -- we don't even get Thanksgiving.  What I was going to say was that -- okay.  We will put input in and write -- if you want to write a little abstract for the two that you have done, that saves us doing it, so Gunela, can you write a little abstract for your workshop proposal, Gerry, can you write a little -- I mean, it can be three sentences.  It doesn't have to be that much.  
	>> GERRY ELLIS: Yeah, I'll come up with a title and I'll have that to you by the end of Friday.  It will be probably tomorrow but maybe Friday.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: That's perfect.  And Gunela, can you come up with something?  
	>> GUNELA ASBRINK: Yeah.  I'll do something too.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: And I will do something.  We will get in touch with Judy and with Francesca and myself.  It will be the same crowd, but that's what we've got.  We've got the diehard, hard core, and that's great.  
	>> GERRY ELLIS: Diehard DCAD.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: What was that?  
	>> The diehard DCAD.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Diehard DCAD.  
	>> GERRY ELLIS: The title that you're proposing, the Universal title, can you read it again?  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Read it again.  "Universal Design colon Creating an Accessible Global Digital Future."
	>> GERRY ELLIS: Okay.  Can I make one small suggestion, and you can take it or dump it, and I don't mind either.  Rather than saying "Universal Design colon" If you just say "Universal Design and," because that widens it out, I think.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Yes, we can put the word in "and."  We don't have to say colon.  
	>> GERRY ELLIS: If you say "Universal Design colon," it really limits you to say Universal Design, and it's part of it.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: I agree.  This was a brainstorm very early this morning.  We'll put "and" in there.  Gunela, is that okay with you?  
	>> GUNELA ASBRINK: Yes, that's fine.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Okay.  Great.  Now, Kaoru, can you explain -- we're going to go -- we know what we're going to do for Items 1 and A.  B, "Possible tags (list of tags are available at)" the website, which nobody's looked at.  This says, "Suggestions (same as last year's ones,)" and that is "Enhancing Accessibility for Persons with Disabilities," "Human Rights Online," which I don't recommend because there is a human rights thing that deals with more political issues, and "Access and Diversity," which we have been under before.  I would go for "Enhancing Accessibility for Persons with Disabilities," and I would add -- you know, that's one, or "Access and Diversity," where we've been before.  What do the rest of you think?  Gunela?  
	>> GUNELA ASBRINK: Yeah.  Look, I think we can use several tags because the tags are there for people to search on, and so "Access and Diversity" make perfect sense, and -- well, "Enhancing Accessibility for Persons with Disabilities," that one we've -- is that one we've come up with or is it actually one that's in the list?  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: That's correct.  
	>> KAORU: We can use -- we can create our own tag.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Kaoru said we can create our own -- 
	>> GUNELA ASBRINK: Okay.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Can we have all three?  
	>> KAORU: We can create our own tag.  It is mentioned on the website here.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Well, that's interesting.  
	>> GUNELA ASBRINK: Okay.  Well, if it's mentioned, I can see -- I can see what Kaoru has put on there that "Access and Diversity" is top of the list, and five down from that or four down is "Enhancing Accessibility for Persons with Disabilities," so, to me they are the perfect tags to have, those two.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: I agree.  Gerry.  
	>> GERRY ELLIS: Yeah, I agree with that.  Do you want to extend it out and say, "for Persons with Disabilities" and something else, or do you want to just leave it for "Persons with Disabilities"?
	>> ANDREA SAKS: And I would say "Specific Needs." I would put "Specific Needs" --
	>> GERRY ELLIS: Yeah.
	>> ANDREA SAKS: -- because it takes in the rest of the group.  Is that where you were going?  
	>> GERRY ELLIS: Gunela.  
	>> GUNELA ASBRINK: I would just leave it.  I think it's too long.  I think it doesn't necessarily need to be there.  I think it's enough to have "Enhancing Accessibility for Persons with Disabilities."
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Okay.  What do you think, Gerry?  What else would you want?  
	>> GERRY ELLIS: Yep, happy with that.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Okay.  We'll do it that way, then.  That's fine.  Now, the speakers, I just told you what I was going to do.  I've listed them.  It will be Judy, you, Gerry, you, Gunela.  Don't worry about funding now.  Like we did last year, we don't know what's going on with that.  There is some money left over, not much, but if Gerry says he can't come, that means that that saves us a bit of money and we'll have him remote.  And also, Gerry could do a secondary workshop subject, should we need it, on remote participation.  I was just thinking that, or I could, but I'm not sure yet, but that's -- I mean, we can change as we adapt, so I'm going to list Judy, you, Gerry, you, Gunela, Francesca, and myself as the speakers, and also Kaoru would probably make a very good moderator.  What do you think, Kaoru.  
	>> KAORU: I can -- yes.  I can do that.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: That would be fabulous.  So we have -- by the way, Kaoru bosses me around.  She tells me what I need to do, so she's right on top of everything, don't you, Kaoru?  
	(Laughter) 
	She knows what's going on, so I think that would be -- and Kaoru would be the moderator.  I think that would be great, to make a change.  
	>> GERRY ELLIS: Do you need a remote moderator as well.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: We do need a remote moderator as well.  
	>> KAORU: (Inaudible) 
	>> ANDREA SAKS: I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you, Kaoru.  You were too close to the mic.  
	>> KAORU: I meant I can do remote moderator.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Being.  We will sort that out.
-- okay.  We will sort that out.  That's fine.  We're all right with that.  So we're okay.  
	>> GUNELA ASBRINK: Andrea, I just wanted to say that De has joined us on the chat.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Oh, De, is on the chat.  I wasn't looking.  De, hi.  Sorry I'm late, but I agree to those two tags, as they are -- as they are.  Okay.  So, De, are you going to be able to be the remote moderator this year?  Are you going to be able to be in Geneva this year or what's happening with you?  I'm glad she's -- I'm glad you're on, De.  We got more of the hard core.  
	I don't think I'll get to Geneva.  Okay.  Can you -- I've -- well, De, can you be a remote moderator and not be in Geneva because we're going to have a DCAD meeting as well.  De's typing.  "I don't think it would work technically."  That's probably true.  De, I'm trying to find a way to involve you directly because you're so good at being there.  Can we send De the captioning, Kaoru, so that she can see what happens as soon as we're finished with the call?  
	>> KAORU: Yes, of course.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Okay.  If it is possible, then, I would be happy to help.  We're going to send you so you can see what's going on and if you have any comments about what we've decided briefly, the title is going to be "Universal Design and Creating an Accessible Global Digital Future."  You got a copy of the agenda, and Gerry decided the colon was not -- not clear, that it might be just about universal design, which it isn't.  Gerry's going to do a topic which deals the difference between impairment and disability, and Gunela is going to do something more specific about universal design because she has done this in the past, referring to telecommunications and other ICTs, I presume, and she's going to write -- 
	>> GUNELA ASBRINK: Yes.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: They're both going to write something down as a little paragraph or three or four sentences or something like that as to what it is.  And then I have to chase up Judy to see if she can still do it.  We will have Francesca, and we might even get Axel Leblois, which is interesting.  We might not.  But we'll see what is going on.  It is Christmastime.  It is difficult.  We may not have those two, come to think of it, but I will be there, and obviously, I'll do something.
And I'm not really sure what I'm going to do, but it may have to do "Involving Persons with Disabilities in the Process of Creating," and I think that's where I'm going to be, and how important it is to make the space available to them where they can.  So I think that's what -- 
	>> GERRY ELLIS: And the finance.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: -- I'll talk about.  Gerry, did you say something?  
	>> GERRY ELLIS: Sorry, I was saying not just the space for people but the finance support, which is important to have their voices heard.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: That's exactly my point because the space is not sufficient, you're quite right, because if I didn't go out and fundraise, we wouldn't have anything.  Does that make any -- I mean -- and I really don't think it should be down to me to do it all the time.  I think the IGF should make provision, so -- and that it should be part of the IGF budget, and just like it's becoming part of the budget for the ITU; whereas, we have the ability to bring in certain people who need to be there physically.  Gerry, because Gerry can participate remotely, unfortunately, he's not getting this much this year because we did send him places last year, so -- the year before, so it's kind of like I hate that where I have to pick and choose and find a way of -- with the limited funds, so I think that's an important -- and it should be part of everybody's budget, so I think that's what I'll discuss and along that line, if that's okay with everybody.  
	>> GUNELA ASBRINK: Right.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Okay.  Well, the format was 90 minutes.  I understand, Gunela, you wanted more than one workshop.  I don't think I could handle doing more than one workshop, to be perfectly blunt.  We're going to have our Dynamic Coalition meeting.  We are going to have a workshop, which for this year has been very difficult to organize.  The problems that we've had is that everybody is collocating at the same time, not very intelligently, different meetings that conflict, so it's been really hard to be organized this year to do things, and though we're in Geneva, I -- there may be a situation where we can change the speakers.  There is one speaker I was thinking of who I haven't mentioned, and I'll just throw that out.  If Judy can't come, there are speakers in the development sector of the ITU-D, and there is somebody who could do that, and her name is Roxana Widmer, who is the focal point for the Accessibility Question Number 7 in the Study Group 1 of ITU-D, and she was not able to be on the call, but because we're in Geneva, we might be able to get her to participate.
	So like I said, we're going to submit what we can.  I will be in Geneva on Monday.  We won't submit anything before Monday, but Monday afternoon we'll ship it out to everybody.  Kaoru, does that work better for you and -- it will work better for me.  Kaoru, are you there?  
	>> KAORU: Yeah, yeah.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Was that an okay?  
	>> KAORU: Mm-hmm.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Okay.  Was that an okay that we should be able to get something to IGF -- we should finish, send it out to people, and submit it on the 3rd without difficulty, because I will be there Monday, right?  
	(Someone talking in the background) 
	Are you not understanding what I'm asking you?  Are you there?  I'm not hearing you.  Hello.  
	>> KAORU: Yes.  
	>> Sorry, Andrea.  (Inaudible) 
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Sorry, what did you talk?  
	>> You were talking to Gunela there?  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: No, I talk to Kaoru.  
	>> KAORU: Yes, no problem.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Oh, my gosh, Shadi got on.  Shadi Abou-Zahra.  Are you going to be able to come to Geneva for IGF?  
	>> Hi, Andrea.  I don't think so, unfortunately.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Okay.  We're having a lot of problems for people who cannot come because it's really the wrong time of the year.  Do you know what the dates are?  It's the 18th-21st of December, so I don't know if you'd want to participate remotely as a remote presenter if you wanted to contribute to the workshop.  We've come up with a title.  Let me recap for Shadi for a minute.  Did you get the agenda today?  
	>> SHADI ABOU-ZAHRA: Yes, I did.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Right.  Did you see the one at the bottom of the titles, "Universal Design and Creating an Accessible Global Digital Future," Gunela and Gerry and I and Kaoru felt that that would open the door to maybe trying to reach people who have the power to do anything because even though we speak about Persons with Disabilities and we have Persons with Disabilities who are working with us, they're not often listened to, so the focus is a little bit broader.  So that's kind of what we decided to do.  Gerry's going to give a presentation on the difference between disability and impairment because he explained to us -- he gave a scenario.  Quick, Gerry, give us the scenario for Shadi.  
	>> GERRY ELLIS: Hi, Shadi.  Great to hear from you.  I haven't heard from you in a while.  I was saying, Shadi, when we were in Mexico, there was an MEP from England there, and she was maybe struggling to see where we were coming from, and I gave her the example that I'm totally blind and she's not, so I have a very severe impairment, if you like, but if you put her and me into a dark room, she would be more disabled than me because I've worked out methods of coping with blindness, where she wouldn't have, you know what I mean, so there is a big difference sometimes between impairment and disability, and what we're trying to do is to change society to accommodate our impairment to lessen disability.  That's where I'm coming from.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: And Gunela, would you like to give a synopsis of what you're going to do?  
	>> GUNELA ASBRINK: Yeah, sure.  Hi, Shadi.  Yes, so part of the title is about universal design, and I'll talk about the principles of universal design and how they relate to telecommunications and ICT generally and give some examples of -- of successful universal design and how it can be improved.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Shadi, have you got any comments of what you'd like us to do or see happen with the workshop?  And this is not the DCAD meeting, this is the workshop and it's with G3ict together.  Is there somebody from W3C who might like to give a presentation?  
	>> SHADI ABOU-ZAHRA: I'd have to look into it.  I must admit I haven't actually had a lot of time to think about this.  One of the things that I am particularly interested in right now that I think is really important to address is the Internet of Things and the evolution of that and how to try to address accessibility on that.  I actually wrote a paper that we have on open access, which was presented at the Web for All Conference maybe two weeks ago, two or three weeks ago.  We are trying at W3C, we have a Research Questions Task Force where we are trying to look at that, you know, aspect, and trying to look at how can we make sure that as this new technology or this new platform is evolving, how we can ensure from the beginning that accessibility for people with disabilities is considered -- 
	>> ANDREA SAKS: That's excellent.  
	>> SHADI ABOU-ZAHRA: So I'm happy to share --
	(Overlapping speakers) 
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Let me ask you how to do this.  You couldn't come, but you might be able to -- we could post your paper, which would be easy to do.  I think that should be a topic.  I think everyone wouldn't disagree with that, Internet of Things and how -- and you could give me -- we could just put you on there for the time being to be confirmed rather than that you are confirmed, or we can put you on there, and if you couldn't do it, we could take you off, but the point is we have until the 3rd of May to submit this.  As usual, they have unrealistic expectations, and everything is meeting at the same point, so what I was thinking, if you came up with a title for me -- maybe it's a title of your paper, which is what, by the way?  
	>> GUNELA ASBRINK: Open Access.  
	>> SHADI ABOU-ZAHRA: I don't even remember exactly.  I think it was along the lines of how web standards can address the accessibility of Internet of Things for People with Disabilities.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: That sounds lovely, and now we have the captioning, so we'll use that for a moment until we can adjust it.  And can we -- 
	>> GUNELA ASBRINK: And Andrea -- 
	>> ANDREA SAKS: -- stick you on the program as a possibility, but none of this is cast in stone because I explained to everybody before when I first did one of these things years ago -- I can't remember where we were, but I -- I was, like, one person with somebody when somebody from the TSB sat me down, that was Reinhard, and we wrote everything down, and we didn't have anybody's agreement on anything and we just did it and sent it off and that was that, and we filled in the blanks later with people putting them on and saying, by the way, you're doing this.  This is how we did it during the early days.  Can we just put you on for the time being and say you're there, and maybe if it isn't you, it could be somebody you choose to represent.  It's in Geneva.  It's not impossible for people in Germany to get to us, or do it remotely.  What do you think?  
	>> SHADI ABOU-ZAHRA: Yeah, absolutely, and I just pasted also the link to the paper in the chat.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Oh, fabulous.  
	>> SHADI ABOU-ZAHRA: Feel free to circulate that all -- 
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Kaoru, have you got note of that link?  
	>> KAORU: Yes.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Okay.  Great.  All right.  Okay.  Let's do that.  Shadi, you're on there, and we'll put W3 -- we'll put Shadi Abou-Zahra and we'll put W3C and the title.  That's fine.  I get tired of the sound of my own voice.  I was only filling in because there wasn't anybody there.  We've got one, two, three, and we'll get the person from -- Roxana if we can't get Judy.  If Judy wants to come, we can get Judy, but we can also see if we can get Roxana, so I think we're almost to a point.  We decided that we were going to also -- we could make our own tags this year, instead of just being under "Access and Diversity," we could also have "Enhancing Accessibility for Persons with Disabilities" as a tag as well as "Access and Diversity," so we were going to add that as our tag, both tags, and so we're not completely -- we're not completely finalized on speakers, but we're just going to put it out there.  So I'm very grateful that you popped on.
	Is there anything -- oh, I definitely like the topic.  I'm reading what you said.  Definitely.  I mean, we've missed you, Shadi.  Glad you're back on the phones here, because -- what did we come up with, Gerry, we're the diehard DCAD.  
	>> Exactly.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: We seem to have a diehard group so we're glad to be here.  
	>> Andrea, you might want to send IGF too many names than too few because it's (Inaudible) 
	>> ANDREA SAKS: I agree.  I'm going to do that.  I just have to confirm with Roxana.  We'll have Judy, we'll have you, Gerry, we have Gunela, we have Shadi, we have myself, and Francesca Cesa Bianchi, who was there last time, so we've got that, and that's good, and we'll take the 90-minute slot and we will -- we will sort these things out pretty quickly, so I think by -- I can also work over the weekend because I'm flying in to Geneva on Saturday night.  I leave Gloucestershire because it takes me so long to get anywhere from here at 10:00, but Kaoru and I will be meeting up, and there is a TSAG meeting which takes four days.  We'll find a way to get it done.  It may be what we call a fait accompli, but we can correct it later.  Even if it goes on the web, we can do that, and Shadi, I'm very pleased to have you on, and Gerry, you're always a good one to have, and so are you, Gunela, because you're both very, very loyal.
	Cheryl Langdon from Australia wrote to me as well, and I don't know if she can come, she's thinking about it.  We can change things, and if that's okay with you -- I've got ten minutes.  I'm going to give each one of you something -- some time to speak, and Kaoru, I'm going to let you speak first.  Is there anything you think we've not covered?  I know we haven't talked much about updating the DCAD list at this particular time, but I think the workshop is more important at the moment.  Is there something that you think we need to add?  
	>> KAORU: It's okay.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: It's okay?  Now, I will mention this about the DCAD -- it will be the DCAD/G3ict Workshop.  I think we will be having to change it as.  And also, Gunela, thank you for all the work you did on DCAD.  Would everyone review that, please.  It's -- it's on the agenda, and see if there's something you would like to add or if you're okay with that, and that way the next time we have a conference call, which will be later in the year, after June, because I don't think we can organize it before June.  Am I correct, Kaoru?  
	>> KAORU: Mm-hmm.  Yes, I think so.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Because we have WSIS and M-Enabling.  Oh, Gerry, quick question.  Did you get your funding?  
	>> GERRY ELLIS: No.  I haven't heard definitely one way or the other, but I think at this stage, no is the answer.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Well, okay.  What you mean is you haven't heard and they're thinking about it.  If you haven't got a no yet, they're thinking about it.  
	>> GERRY ELLIS: Exactly.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: So that's not a no.  Be positive.  
	>> GERRY ELLIS: I'm positive it's a no.  
	(Laughter) 
	I don't know.  I expected an answer by early this week, but as you say, no news is good news because it's not a no.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Exactly.  Okay.  Fine.  So anyway, now, the DCAD thing, if you guys can look at that over the next couple of months, that would be great, because I do think we need to update, and also look at the two documents that came out of ITU-T, which dealt with remote participation, which are linked, and accessible -- and also accessible meetings, which are linked, which are a bit more extensive than the DCAD Guidelines, so if you can look at that because they were born out of the DCAD guidelines.
	Anyway, that's what we did in Istanbul.  Francesca and I sat down and put it together in Istanbul, and then we added things to it.  Now, I said I'd give everybody some time to talk.  Who would like to go next?  Shadi, is there anything you would like to say?  
	>> GUNELA ASBRINK: Yeah, I can go.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Oh, you want to go first, Gunela?  
	>> GUNELA ASBRINK: I'd like to go first, Andrea.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Go ahead and say what you need to say.  
	>> GUNELA ASBRINK: Thank you.  The other topic on the agenda was about session format, and I'm presuming we agree to do the open forum discussion, and if we're having five or six speakers, which might go down to four, depending on who's available, the preferred type of format for IGF and certainly in this region, in the Asia-Pacific region, is to have short presentations and a lot more discussion, and I just want to appeal to everyone to -- to give the opportunity for more discussion, so if each speaker talks for maybe five minutes and then we have half an hour for discussion, because then we can get some very rich dialogue and learn a little bit more from the participants in the workshop, so that's number one question.  And the other thing, Andrea, is probably a direct question to you, and just taking the opportunity now because at the IGF in Mexico, there was a director of the Americas there from ITU, and he was talking about an accessible America meeting in St. Lucia coming up next year, and I was just interested in knowing any progress there because there was a lot of interest, certainly from De, and there was -- I talked to some people from Puerto Rico and some other Caribbean states, Trinidad and Tobago, who are very interested, so if there's any way we could get some update on that, it would be really appreciated.  Thanks, Andrea.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Okay.  Let me just read.  De's been chatting here for a minute.  Okay.  Like the small places in the south.  How to include Persons with Disabilities, the mental disability, they get left out, like small places in the south.  Gunela has said, I agree, De.  Shadi said, De, I agree.  We have to do work on people with cognitive and learning disabilities, but mental health is still less well addressed.  We do have somebody who was working on that in the ITU who was an intern at WHO, who is now in Germany.  Shadi, I'm going to link you up with him.  That is Ronaldo, and I can't think of Ronaldo's last name, so we might be able to -- 
	(Overlapping speakers) 
	Mine is frozen.  Captioning is happening.  Yes, Gunela.  Excellent.  De said I agree 1,000% with Gunela.  I haven't heard anything about the St. Lucia meeting, and neither have I, Gunela, but we'll keep an eye out for it.  Both of you, De and Gunela, please keep us informed and keep Kaoru copied in the list.  Now we've got about three minutes.
	Shadi, do you want to say something else?  
	>> SHADI ABOU-ZAHRA: Yeah.  Just wanted to let you know that I do know Ronaldo, and I think he's also affiliated with University of South Hampton, and I've been working with him.  I think he's involved in our cognitive and learning disabilities task force as well.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Can you talk to him about the ability of maybe -- 
	>> SHADI ABOU-ZAHRA: But I meant -- 
	>> ANDREA SAKS: I don't know if he will be here.  You know, he comes from one of the islands.  De would be happy about that.  I can't remember which island he comes from, but can you talk to him about possibly doing something about representing that, because like I say, we just have to make that deadline, and if he's going to be around -- could I ask you to follow up on that as soon as you possibly can and come back to me and Kaoru?  
	>> SHADI ABOU-ZAHRA: So I'm happy to -- I'm not sure, did you want me to put you in touch with him or are you already in touch with him?  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: I'm already in touch with him.  
	(Overlapping speakers) 
	It's just like I'm trying to delegate.  I have a lot of -- I suppose I could write to him again, but the thing is -- okay.  I was just thinking since you were both in the same country, you know, it's -- and you know him and he's working with a project with you, that you might express to him -- because you're in DCAD and he is not, it would just save me an effort because you're very clear on this, and I just wondered if you would say, would you be interested in presenting, will you be here?  It will just save me some time and you know what you're talking about.  I'm mentally deranged anyway.  
	>> SHADI ABOU-ZAHRA: (Inaudible) get in touch with him.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Copy me.  Just copy me on it.  
	>> SHADI ABOU-ZAHRA: (Inaudible) take that delegation.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: If you just copy me on that, that would be great.  Are you there?  
	>> SHADI ABOU-ZAHRA: Okay.  Will do.  I'll -- yes, I'll copy you and I'll copy De as well.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: And copy Kaoru.  She's on the -- she's the one that sent you the agenda.  
	>> SHADI ABOU-ZAHRA: Okay.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Okay?  
	>> SHADI ABOU-ZAHRA: Happy to.  Yes.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: And De says, can you please put me in there, and De says thanks a million.  Gerry, you've got one minute.  Go ahead and say something.  
	>> GERRY ELLIS: I will say, for once in my life, I'm happy with the way things have gone so far.  Just ask Gunela, will she send me that document that she forwarded on to you, because once you were talking about Gunela, myself, and Judith, if you remember, for her to be involved in it, so maybe see if we can hook up because if we're doing something for an accessible meeting (Inaudible) remote participation would be good.  Get it sent to IGF a few months before the IGF so they can say that they -- can't say they got it too late.  That's my main point.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: All the links are resources on the agenda.  You've already got them.  
	>> I'll day care that out.  No problem.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: So -- I'll take that out.  No problem.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: It's already there.  Kaoru did a great job.  
	>> Kaoru it's wonderful stuff.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: She's absolutely tiptop.  Thank you very much.  And we also want to thank the captioner.  I can't remember which captioner we've got, and I want to thank Abboud for being our remote moderator.  
	Thank you to the captioner.  I'm sorry.  I think it's Lisa, but anyway, who's been taking that, and De's sending a comment, "Re: mental disability, do we remember anything about the man mentioned at -- as a topic at the IGF meeting last year?"  Nope, we don't.  I don't know who he was.  And De, if you do remember who it is, maybe we can do something.  Now, Abboud is trying to say something to us.  I think we have to close.  We're two or three minutes past.  We're two minutes past the hour.  If there's no other comment, we will let you know when we're going to do the next conference call.  We will put this together and try and send this out as quickly as we can, probably not before Monday, so look for it, and then Wednesday, depending -- and silence, if you don't have anything to add, don't add anything.  If you have something you want to change, do it very quickly, and then we'll submit it to IGF on the 3rd.
	Abboud has sent a link, but I don't know what the link is on.  Abboud what is the link about.  If you could speak.  
	>> Actually, I explained it's the formula for the participation, for the remote participation, just to -- to evaluate this meeting.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Okay.  Right.  That link, you want us to validate what we have done, right.  Okay.  We will send that link in an email to everybody, and if you can click on that, and Abboud, thank you very much for your good work in getting this together, working on time, and coming early to do it.  Kaoru, thank you very much for all the preparatory work.  
	>> KAORU: Thank you.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Thank you to everyone for coming.  Kaoru -- without Kaoru, this would not exist.  I'm totally incompetent.  So anyway, thank you, everyone, for coming.  I'm going to close the meeting.  Last chance.  Any other comments?  
	Thank you, everyone.  The meeting is closed.  
	>> Bye.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Bye, Gunela.  Bye.  
	>> GUNELA ASBRINK: Bye, Andrea.  Bye, everyone.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Take care De, thank you for being on.  Okay.  Kaoru, are you still there?  
	>> KAORU: Yes.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: We can talk after you shut everything down.  I'm still here.  I'll hang up this phone and we can talk later this afternoon, what time, or tomorrow morning, what time?  
	>> KAORU: Okay.  I will call you.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Perfect.  Perfect.  Okay.  Thank you so much.  
	>> Have a nice day.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Bye for now.  Thank you.  Have a great afternoon.  Thank you, Abboud.  

	(Session concluded at 7:05 a.m. CT) 

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This text is being provided in realtime format.  Communication Access Realtime Translation (CART) or captioning is provided in order to facilitate communication accessibility and may not be a totally verbatim record of the proceedings.
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