FINISHED FILE

ITU-DCAD
E-MEETING
THURSDAY, APRIL 6, 2017
12:00 UTC/7:00 A.M. CT

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	>> ANDREA SAKS: Okay.  Welcome to the DCAD meeting.  Thank you for your patience.  We are trying to -- what is that now?  Okay.  We are okay.  The captioning's great.  Thank you.  I don't know who the captioner is, but thank you very, very much.  
	De, you can see the captions.  Judy.  Hi, Judy.  Judy is in the captioning chat.  She is having trouble connecting to Adobe.  
	>> That was at the beginning.  This is an old message.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Okay.  This is an old message.  
	>> Right now, she is typing in realtime while you are talking.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Okay.  We are all set.  I think De can see something and Gunela is on.  And Gerry is on mute by his own choosing.  He is not muted, but he is on the phone call.  Correct?  Gerry, unmute yourself, please.  
	>> GERRY ELLIS: Yeah, I am here now.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Gerry is there now.  Gerry, I know you are not going to say anything obscene, so you can stay on.  
	Gerry, you had the agenda in advance; did you not?  And I will read it out just to say we are going to start talking now, very quickly -- we have taken 15 minutes to get hooked up properly, so the DCAD workshop is what we want to discuss, and there is a deadline for the proposal submission of the 3rd of May.  The guidelines are available, and we give you the website, and you can look at that if you want to see that.  But we won't bring that up now.  
	The possible workshop content.  Now, the title of the new Internet Governance Forum meeting, what do we have?  Where is that?  The title of the meeting that they are having?  
	>> Shape Your Digital Future.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Thank you.  Shape Your Digital Future is the title of the conference.  Sort of sounds like a diet plan.  Anyhow, that's a very open-ended title.  So I think we have to stay within that enforcement, which could be anything.  So can we move the thing up, please, a little bit?  So we need to have what you think you would like to do that, and Gunela can talk, everybody can talk.  De will type because that's what she does.  And the idea is that we need to get people.  We will send everything out again via email.  We need to get a title and some kind of a paragraph explaining what we want to do.  
	So the suggestions that we had before are Enhancing Accessibility for People with Disabilities, Human Rights Online, and Access & Diversity.  So that's what we had before.  
	Now, the speakers I am not going to worry about right now.  We can deal with that when we have another meeting at the end of April after Easter.  
	So I am going to open the floor.  Does anyone have any ideas?  And De is typing.  I will read what you say, De.  Gerry, I am going to ask you -- oops, I have to come over here and read this.  Hang on.  Maybe we will start with De since De just did a lot.  
	Is this from the beginning, or is this up here?  Okay, De:  Might we consider on the 24th of March, the final day of "ICT week" in Antigua, ICT Persons with Disabilities Workshops were held.  The Caribbean Telecommunications Union, CTU, has made ICT for persons (audio cutting out).  A colleague who was able to attend the workshop reported that a major concern was a lack of knowledge of what is possible now using ICT, as well as a lack of ability to network, among the people with disabilities themselves.  Since this issue was raised last year by Gunela and myself, I am repeating it as a possible topic.  There seems to be a very serious divide in the state of inclusion and awareness of what is available to help and support between people with disabilities in the developed world and those in the "south" under accessibility.  
	Okay.  Let me paraphrase that.  Hang on one second.  Okay.  Keep that up for a minute.  Okay.  Then we'll put that up.  
	So the thing is if I can -- can we paraphrase that, Gunela, since you are familiar with what De is talking about?  Can you hear us, Gunela?  
	>> GUNELA ASTBRINK: Yes, I can hear you, and hello, everyone.  I recall at the workshop we had a discussion during the workshop and also afterwards with some follow-up email in regard to the Caribbean and the need for information about technology, what's available, and there was a senior director from ITU of the Americas who was very interested in supporting moving forward on this.  So I am not sure where that conversation has gone, and Andrea might be able to provide some follow-up.  But thinking about what De is suggesting here, I think we have a possibility of maybe doing something a little bit different this year in regard to networking among people with disability and understanding what ICT can offer.  
	And I am thinking that maybe we could have representatives from some of the major global disability organizations, like World Blind Union and from the deafness sector globally, certainly G3ict.  So looking at it, we can talk together to network to bring that information together and out amongst people.  
	So I am not sure if that's what De had in mind because I know she's talking about the gap, sometimes, of information between people with disability in the developed world and those in the global south.  But with those major global disability organizations, they should be able to cover some of that.  So I am just interested in people's reactions to that to start with.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Well, what I was hoping to do is before we invite people to speak, we've got to invite them to speak about something.  It's going to be in Geneva, which means we have a greater ability to have more people participate and speak, but you have an opportunity right now to choose the subject, and that's what we are trying to do.  
	The plan is we come up with a couple of titles, three titles or subjects, we put it out over the DCAD website, and hope for a response.  Then in the last week of April, we have a meeting before we decide.  This is the plan of this meeting.  Who we invite and speakers, that can be decided probably more over through correspondence and also later because I don't disagree with that.  We can get the world federation for the blind, we can get EDF, we can get the World Federation of the Deaf, we can get the European Federation of Hard of Hearing.  I am not worried about that.  In fact, we will probably get a lot of participation, and we could also put out a call for speakers and subjects if you think that's -- because there's only, what is it, three of us online -- four counting me and five counting Kaoru.  So for us to take the responsibility completely is a bit hairy.  
	So what I need from you is not the guest list.  What I need from you is the topic.  And from what I get from De is that the topic that is not really discussed -- and we did mention it last year -- is that the islands don't get a look-in.  Nobody talks about what goes on in your communities; do they, De?  Am I getting it right, what you want to see out there?  Please type.  Yes, okay, De has typed yes.  
	Okay.  So that's one topic.  So De, your idea.  I want you to put it into one sentence, and while you are thinking about that, Gerry, do you want to say anything at all about the topic?  
	>> GERRY ELLIS: Hi to Kaoru, Andrea.  De, how are you doing?  It's amazing we can talk together in all parts of the world.  
	I am thinking just as we were going on there the name of the overall idea is Shaping Your Digital Future, so maybe we should try and keep in line somewhat with that.  And so we want to get the word "accessible" in there somewhere.  And to go with what De is talking about, we want to see that this is global and not just in the rich West.  So I was thinking of Shaping a Globally Accessible Digital Future.  And that kind of, I think, covers what we are looking at.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: That's a good title.  Okay.  We've got that.  And also, even though there's only a few of us, we came to the meeting, so we could be pretty decisive.  So let me repeat that.  Shaping a Global Accessible Future.  Okay.  That's -- 
	>> GERRY ELLIS: Not quite, Andrea.  It was Shaping a Globally Accessible Digital Future.
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Thank you.  Say it again, please.  
	>> GERRY ELLIS: Shaping a Globally Accessible Digital Future.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Okay.  I have written it down correctly now.  
	The question I have, though, is that "accessible" has two meanings in technology, one for people with disabilities; two for actually being able to connect.  So when you have accessible as a word alone without defining that you are talking about people with disabilities, people don't always know what you are talking about.  So there's always that drawback.  And I just want to remind you of that particular problem, that accessibility has two meanings technologically speaking.  So bearing that in mind, "Shaping a Globally Accessible Digital Future" for whom is where I am going?  For people with disabilities might be a thought.  So I am going to add that just as a thought.  And we can explain that when we write that out.  Okay.  That's one thing.  
	Anybody else?  De, have you got anything else concise?  Have you got your possible concise title specifically?  Well, De will type in a minute.  
	Gunela, do you have a title?  
	>> GUNELA ASTBRINK: I don't have a title as such, but I have a couple of ideas for topics.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Fine.  Give them to us.  Okay.  Go ahead, Gunela.  
	>> GUNELA ASTBRINK: So following on from De -- can you hear me?  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Yes.  
	>> GUNELA ASTBRINK: Good.  Following on from De, where we are talking about linking people with disability and the understanding on how to use ICT between the global South and developed countries, we could look at it from the point of view of small island developing states, which is what we covered a little bit last year.  That might be a bit restrictive.  But it would certainly focus.  I mean, we could even look at putting in two workshop proposals if we are very ambitious.  So one could -- okay.  So De's got "closing the digital divide for persons with disabilities in all parts of the world."  So that's really looking at, yeah, all parts of the world, which is very broad.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Okay.  
	>> GUNELA ASTBRINK: So let me move on from that, and we can discuss how we would do that in regard to topics under the title.  But the other thing would be looking at some technologies because if we are talking about having an accessible -- let's see.  What was it again?  Globally accessible digital future, the Internet of Things is obviously one that is very important for people with disability.  Often it's talked about in many fora with regard to the problems, the problems, for example, of price and security; whereas, for people with disability and other people, it's something that would be very valuable.  So we could have a very useful workshop discussion about the positives, but also bringing in some of the issues around privacy and security.  So that's another thought to put into the mix.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: All right.  Privacy and security.  That's a tricky one, just to be very blunt.  Privacy and security is a completely different ball game than accessibility for people with disabilities to the Internet in the first place.  I would tend to -- 
	>> GUNELA ASTBRINK: Can I interrupt?  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: I am just going to say what I am going to say, then of course you can.  
	The reason being it's a political hot potato at the moment.  I don't know if you are aware what just happened in the U.S. -- not because I am U.S. that's a significant thing for me to say -- the laws were changed to allow Internet providers to sell people's personal details.  If you want to go in that area, it's very much a news keep on top of kind of thing.  
	What Gerry, I think, was going for was globally accessible digital future, which means he wants to paint the future of what it could be, what it should be, and what it isn't?  Am I getting that right, Gerry?  
	>> GERRY ELLIS: Yes, just went on mute there.  It just gives us a wide enough scope that we can cover any issues you like.  So we can actually cover IoT, security, whatever you want.  It's just a broad, open title.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Okay.  So you've got a broad, open title.  
	And Gunela, what would you like to say?  
	>> GUNELA ASTBRINK: Yes, I like Gerry's title, and I didn't mean to say we should focus on privacy and security at all.  What I meant was if we are talking about Internet of Things, where we are talking about smart homes and really, really bringing up technology to assist people throughout their lives, then we can promote Internet of Things in a positive way to counteract the privacy and security issues that often come up when we are talking about self-driving cars or smart homes, smart cities, all of that.  So that could be a topic within Gerry's title, possibly.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Well, you mentioned something very interesting which I would like you all to look at.  De has just said she is working on her title.  And she has come up with Closing the Digital Divide for Persons with Disabilities in All Parts of the World."  Now, that's a pretty good title.  Let's write that down.  Because that kind of -- I am going to -- we are going to print all this out.  We don't have to decide today exactly.  We could, but we are really only three people.  Now, when you want to close the digital divide, and the other thing you said about smart homes and Internet of Things, I am going to tie something together.  De is also saying "shaping an accessible digital future in all parts of the world" globally sometimes leaves us out.  
	Okay.  De is very emphatic about the island nations not being included in many different ways.  So there's no reason that, one, we have to be broad, and there's no reason that we have to be down to a certain thing that is small.  But we could be either one.  Just because we are in the Internet Governance Forum, we don't have to be the be all to end all about everything unless we have a particular bee in the bonnet.  
	You very, very -- Gunela, very interested in security and privacy.  I want you to think about what persons with disabilities -- I am just taking what you said.  If I have it incorrectly, you can correct me, but let me just go through what we've got so far.  You want to do something about smartphones.  Now, when you mention these things, we have to have something that you either want to explain about them, make them more accessible, or have some sort of purpose.  There's all sorts of things that we have to think about.  Five -- well, how about three good topics that we can do?  We have a broad one.  Where is it?  Closing the digital divide for persons with disabilities in all parts of the world globally.  That's also possibly a thing.  I am going to take all these things down and then write them back to you.  We'll write them back to you so you can then make more comments.  But go ahead, Gunela, tell me what you wanted to say that I didn't get correctly.  
	>> GUNELA ASTBRINK: Thanks, Andrea.  No, I won't focusing on privacy and security.  I was saying that others focus on privacy and security.  We can turn it around when we are talking about smart homes that there are many positives for people with disability rather than the negatives that we often hear about with the Internet of Things and smart homes.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Smart homes are really cool.  We have been working on these things in the ITU.  We have a study group called Study Group 20.  One of the things that's interesting is that someone who is wheelchair bound can -- and I have seen this happen in Egypt with somebody who is able to control the closing and the opening of his curtains, to be able to dial the telephone, to be able to turn on the lights to a different degree of brightness.  I think the Internet of Things on what can be done for people with disabilities would be an interesting topic, but we need to find an expert in this or a good fantasy person who can think up all these things and say we should have the ability to have smart homes take into account persons, having lights go on and off when the phone rings so a deaf person can hear it, having a situation -- I am just giving you thoughts because you are going to come back to me with things.  
	I can tell you from my own life -- we lived in a great big rural area, and we were kind of on a hill.  And my father was one of the founders of text telephony for deaf people, and we were one of the first to do that.  Before that, I was the deaf telephone, and above every door, when he built his house, he put a two-way glass divider with a light bulb in it.  When you pushed the doorbell, the lights would go on in every single room in the house.  And the same thing when the telephone rang.  And because the ringing was different for a telephone than somebody pushing the doorbell, they were able to tell which one.  
	Well, we decided we had the best Halloween house on the block.  So when Halloween came along, Bill and I would go and push doorbells and do all kinds of things to make our house go on and off.  That's a -- smart homes have been around in small ways for a long time.  That was one thing that actually was real in my life.  But can you imagine people designing homes where those facilities are in there?  They are talking about things like, okay, your refrigerator is going to tell you when you are out of megapixel.  I am not too interested with that.  I am interested with communication with the outside world with smartphones, possibly also being able to turn on your heating before you come home, to turn on your lights, to you know, be able to do your security.  Now, there's where it might be useful, where you could turn on and off the alarm system.  So there are all these things, and smart homes are interesting, but are we qualified to have this subject for our workshop?  Or do we want to express what we would like to see?  
	>> GUNELA ASTBRINK: Okay.  To respond to that, I wrote a paper on this about 15 years ago in regard to housing for people with disability and older people and using exactly the sort of tools you are talking about and the problems with varying type of standards to use it.  And the incredible expense of those because they weren't trendy back then, and it was only older people and people with disabilities who would really be interested and need them rather than having something a bit quirky.  
	The smart homes have been on the agenda in the general area for a long time, but it hasn't quite broken through.  And it seems now with the Internet of Things, where we are talking about toasters, we are talking about household appliances, clothes, everything having a chip and being connected, so we might be on the cusp of something, and this is a good time to actually raise that people with disability need to be part of that when it comes to accessibility because, for example, you have a lot of digital displays which a person with vision impairment couldn't make use of, so we are talking about assigning smart homes with accessibility built in right from the start.  
	And Google, for example, are working on a number of smart home applications.  At the IGF last year, I raised the importance of ensuring that people with disability weren't left out, and the man from Google nodded and said, oh, yes, yes, we are aware of that.  So it's actually very timely.  I am not wanting to take this away from De's suggested title.  I think we have -- we have a couple of options here.  So I just wanted to clarify what I meant with what I was talking about in regard to this topic, and certainly we can find speakers.  Well, I mean, I have spoken about this before, but there would be other people, I am sure, who could understand IoT and accessibility.  That might be a very useful -- 
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Could I stop you there, Gunela?  We only have 15 more minutes.  Could I stop you there?  I've got the gist.  
	De is making some comments here, and I want to be able to express what De is talking about.  
	We are not going to decide today.  We are going to give you written back the ideas that you are giving us now, and Kaoru and I are going to sit down and do this.  And it will go to everybody, not just us on the phone.  What I am trying to do is because you guys have been great to be on the phone is to pump you.  
	De says -- wait a minute.  Let me get this up.  This thing is difficult for me to use.  Wait a minute.  De said shaping an accessible digital future in all parts of the world globally sometimes leaves -- not just the islands.  This is what she said.  Not just of the islands.  Much of the south.  I don't know what she means by south.  Will you have to explain because the south to me, being an American, means Louisiana and Arkansas.  Although LA is doing quite well, presumably that means Los Angeles.  Anyhow.  De is typing again, and she'll come in with some more.  
	So basically, there's a subject regarding smart homes, to include in the design process access for people with disabilities.  I am paraphrasing.  This is not the title; this is just the subject.  
	Gerry, do you want to add to that?  Because you of all people -- I mean, for you, being in a house, lights are not significant, but heating might be or something might be.  How could that assist someone with your particular disability?  Is there something you could add to this?  
	>> GERRY ELLIS: Hi.  Well, to say that lights are not important is wrong because that ignores the social aspect of having lights on when people come and visit and the security of having a light on, so burglars know that there's somebody in the house, all of those things.  Lights are not just purely to see by.  You know what I mean?  But that's very much an aside.  
	I liked Gunela's idea of having two workshops, and you could maybe use one workshop to look at the new super-duper ideas, such as smart homes.  Smart homes, as we see them now, are not smart homes of 30 years ago.  30 years ago you had some sort of processor in your house and it controlled all the devices.  What we are talking about smart homes is more about devices that could be controlled independently from anywhere in the world using an app.  So you have to make sure that the devices themselves are smart and are directly accessible when you are in the house, the connectivity is secure, but also that the apps that you use on your smartphone or computer are accessible.  So that's really good, strong subject matter, I think.  
	A second one you look at is machine learning, artificial intelligence.  Artificial intelligence is going to become very important as far as accessibility is concerned because it's going to help people to overcome physical disabilities.  There's already stories going around about a guy in -- I think he is in the States -- who lost the use of his arm, but through artificial intelligence, now they are setting up a device in his head that transmits to a receiver on his wrist that allows him, again, to pick stuff up and drink a cup of tea, you know what I mean?  So that sort of smart learning, wearable devices, all of those are going to become very important.  And one that will come to my mind there is wayfinder, which is someone we could maybe invite to come and talk about.  We say smart homes, IoT, but outside in the environment.  
	Then you could have a second workshop which looks at the kind of things that De is talking about, which is more the lower-tech technology, the technology that is affordable to all of people in poorer society.  And I know that De, when she is talking about the south, she is talking about the southern hemisphere, say Africa, much of Asia, southern America, that sort of thing is what she is talking about, the poorer parts of the whorl and not the rich West.  You know what I mean?  In those places they couldn't afford very fancy artificial intelligence, very fancy wearable technology, so maybe you look at the lower-tech solutions and what's happening there and make sure that we are not being left out in that arena.  
	So that's why I would agree with Gunela, maybe we should look for two workshops.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Okay.  De has responded:  I like Gunela's suggestion, Latin America, sorry, that's what she meant by LA.  South, developing world.  Exactly, Gerry, she is agreeing with you.  And the poorer people.  And that would make a great pair of workshops.  
	I hate to disillusion you.  We are only going to get one.  We will not be able to have two.  We will have a DCAD meeting, and we will have a workshop.  So we are not going to obviously come to any great conclusion.  We have a lot of ideas which we will express.  So I am writing them down.  
	I mean, I like a lot of these ideas, but we have to bear in mind are we the experts on these particular subjects or not?  Who do we have speak?  
	Your comments, Gerry, about smart homes regarding lights, I am sorry, I didn't mean to be flippant.  I meant that you wouldn't be too worried to turn on the lights maybe, but I didn't mean it in the sense that you are perfectly correct that you need to have lights to prevent burglars and things like that.  
	From your perspective of how you would like a smart home to work for you would be a subject that you would be qualified to speak on.  Somebody from the ITU Study Group 20 might be more qualified to speak about the actual technical aspects of how it is done.  So we have to be careful when we are talking about these things about -- we have to separate from the technology and who knows what and who is an expert and what we want as persons with disabilities.  That's another thing.  So I think we have to be careful here.  
	(Coughing) 
	I am sorry.  Hang on.  
	Could we have a big workshop in two parts -- the high tech and low tech?  
	I think we will be lucky to get a workshop, De, because the demand for workshops was phenomenal.  We managed to get one because we are DCAD, the Dynamic Coalition on Accessibility and Disability.  They couldn't very well not give us one.  So we are not going to get more than anybody else.  So the point is we have to take it within the realm of our limitations.  
	We also, just so you don't forget, have to finish redoing the DCAD Accessibility Guidelines, and that's going to be for the DCAD meeting.  And we have sent out the tracked version that Gunela -- and it was you, Gerry, that worked on that.  Is that correct?  I know Gunela did.  Did you work on that too?  Hello?  
	>> GERRY ELLIS: No, Gunela is doing all that hard work.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Gunela is doing that.  Okay.  Everybody's homework is to take a look at that particular document, and I will too when I get a minute.  But that's for the DCAD.  We have two meetings.  We have the DCAD workshop, and we have the DCAD meeting, which filters in to Accessibility Guidelines.  
	There's nothing to stop us in the workshop, if you want to deal with smart homes and you want to deal with the subject of -- "bridging the digital divide" is a common expression that is using that expression in the ITU, "bridging the digital divide."  So Bridging the Digital Divide for Persons with Disabilities I want to throw out there as my contribution for a possible title because we haven't used that; have we?  We have not used "Bridging the Digital Divide for Persons with Disabilities," and then could you put anything under that.  That's one suggestion if you guys don't mind me having one.  
	We have to come up with something if you want to be a contributor that you are an expert in, so you have to be careful what you suggest.  And also, I've got to tell you something right now, there is no funding on the horizon for anybody to go to IGF at this particular point, even though we are in Geneva.  There just isn't any funding right now.  It doesn't mean there won't be, it doesn't mean I won't find any, but the point is that's where we are.  For Gunela, this is dire because you are coming from Australia.  For Gerry, this is not too bad because it's not so expensive.  
	Let me go quickly back to the agenda because I want to be sure that -- because what we had last year was "sustainable accessible goals for persons with disabilities."  Now, we had goals.  You can also carry on from that.  And we are not going to be able to decide quite a lot.  We've got ten minutes.  There's something I want to send out.  Have we sent out -- may I ask you a question, Kaoru?  Have we sent out the Accessible Remote Participation and the Accessible Guidelines?  Just the links.  Okay.  There were two documents done in the ITU which were Accessible Meetings, and that came after the DCAD Accessible Guidelines, and Accessible Remote Participation.  We thought this might be interesting and helpful for you guys to take a look at to maybe give you some ideas that might be elaborated or something that's not being done.  So I am just going to throw that out before I forget.  
	So back to all the pieces of information, I won't go through everything again because I want to save the time.  Any other ideas that you might want to throw out there as a possible workshop?  Let's call it a subject.  We won't worry about the title right now.  A workshop subject?  What do you -- I know De wants island nations and accessibility somewhere.  Gerry is more interested in -- I am not saying more interested -- has suggested a global -- Shaping a Globally Accessible Digital Future, and that's what you said.  And I added for persons with disabilities.  There's also another issue.  Accessibility is extremely important for persons with disabilities if we are going to be doing things like smart homes, but also be able to communicate with health providers and health carers in a digital way.  That's another subject.  We are getting more technical.  So I just want -- I want you guys to do some thinking for me because I don't want it to be down to Kaoru and I, and it shouldn't be down to just the three of us.  Can you all do some homework for me over the holidays and write to us?  Just even if you just have one sentence, just give us stuff.  And we'll come back to you next week, I think, with everything that we have and a complete list in an email -- and Kaoru, bless her heart, is going yes with her head -- so we can then give that back to you and to the other persons who are on the DCAD mailing list to see if they want to contribute.  And can we begin to think about -- because we are running out of time.  Unfortunately, we had a technical problem -- the week that we could have another meeting. 
Because remember we have to come up with something by the 3rd of May.  And the actual date -- let me look at April again -- that we could reconvene to possibly have a conference call would be possibly Tuesday, the 25th; the 26th; and the 27th midweek.  And we are going to propose that in an email.  We can't decide today, but can you look at those in your own life and see if those are okay?  And since you know in advance if you have a preference to kind of tell us.  
	Now, the floor is back open to everybody else.  Gunela, would you like to say something?  Because we only have about six minutes.  
	>> GUNELA ASTBRINK: No, not really.  I think we probably need to continue online to work through where we are going.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Okay.  Great.  
	Gerry?  
	>> GERRY ELLIS: No, I think we've covered enough for today.  I just wonder about the timing of this call, though, from Gunela's point of view, where I am sure it's 1:00 or 2:00 in the morning, or maybe 3:00 in the morning.  I don't know.  I don't know.  Maybe we should have it a bit earlier to help Gunela out there?  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: That's a great idea.  I will leave that to Kaoru.  
	>> GUNELA ASTBRINK: That's very kind of you, Gerry, to think about me.  I appreciate it a lot.  It's not too bad, it's 10:00 p.m. here, but I know we had a choice of three different times, and if it was the 11:00 a.m. time slot, that would be even better for me, but I know it's difficult to get a time that suits everyone.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: All right.  We'll take that into consideration of maybe doing it a little bit earlier.  
	De, how was your time?  I love De's comeback.  De says she can't do the 27th.  Oh, De has made some other comments.  Let me go back.  Hold on.  The expertise available here is what pwds need.  Gunela says she can't do the 20th.  De:  That would be good for raising awareness.  What is that?  What do you mean about that?  Nothing about us without us.  We've got that, De.  What do you mean by "that"? What does the "that" mean would be good for awareness raising?  De is typing.  We will have clarification in a minute.  And De, if you have something else?  Oh, PWD need.  What PWD need.  I got it.  Okay.  Right.  
	While she is typing that, I think what I'd like you guys to do is to think about maybe not being too broad.  I think the title of the actual IGF this year -- can we go down?  What is it again?  I never can remember because it's so bloody broad.  "Shape Your Digital Future."  We need to use some of those words.  "Shape" I think specifically.  I mean, but we can improve the lives of persons with disabilities through a digital future too, and I think that's the concept we are kind of working around.  
	So I think Kaoru and I will do some thinking as well, yeah, and we'll try and see what we can come up with.  
	Now, persons with disabilities themselves perceive as needs, what they perceive.  This is De, by the way.  What they perceive.  Oh, that was for the word "that."  "That" meant what persons themselves perceive as needs, what they perceive.  Okay.  She is still typing.  I will get that.  
	>> GERRY ELLIS: Gerry here.  Just while we are waiting for De, maybe we could think of another title of "persons with disabilities shaping their own digital future."  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: That's good.  I like that.  Persons with disabilities -- 
	>> GERRY ELLIS: "Persons with disabilities shaping their own digital future."  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: -- their own digital future.  
	Kaoru has one.  Kaoru, say it loud.  
	>> KAORU MIZUNO: Adding "accessible."  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Where?  "Persons with disabilities shaping their own accessible digital future."  That's kind of cool.  That's great.  I like that.  I don't know how you feel about that, Gerry, but that's meaning that they are emphasizing that persons with disabilities can shape their own accessible future.  Anyway, we will put that in, Kaoru.  Okay.  That's good.  
	Gunela said sounds good, Gerry.  De, yes, Gerry.  Tell the world what PWD actually need.  
	So I will read that again so you know.  De said what they perceive, tell the world what pwd actually need, and then in response to your new title, "persons with disabilities shaping their own digital future" with possibly Kaoru's addition of "accessible digital future," and De liked Gerry's comment.  And Gunela said that sounds good, Gerry.  
	So that's kind of closer.  So we'll put all that in there, and then I am expecting you guys who are our most active ones -- because it usually is Gunela, De, and you, Gerry, that come through for me, and then others do when they have time.  And I realize it's before Easter.  
	Okay.  We have one minute for last comments.  Gunela?  
	>> GUNELA ASTBRINK: No, I am fine, thanks.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Gerry?  
	>> GERRY ELLIS: No more for me.  Just best of luck to everyone.  
	>> ANDREA SAKS: Thank you for being on.  De, have you got a last comment you would like to type?  No, thanks.  
	Listen, thank you very much.  This has been very helpful.  We'll put it together, and in the meantime, if you think of something that you didn't mention, will you please send us an email right away?  And we'll add to that.  And we will -- we can't do the 27th, so it will be the other two days.  We'll send that out for a possible meeting for confirmation as soon as possible.  
	Thank you very much for taking the time to be on the call, and I am sorry we lost 15 minutes.  We will beat our young lady up and we'll beat Mohamed up.  Never mind.  Only nicely, of course.  Thank you so much.  It's been very helpful, and I appreciate your time.  Thank you.  The meeting is over.  Bye-bye.  
	Gunela says thank you, bye.  De says thanks to everyone there.  Bye.  
	Gerry, aren't you going to say good-bye?  I think he is gone.  Okay.  Bye-bye.  
	
(End of session, 13:00 UTC/8:00 a.m. CT) 

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